#116: Betsy Philpott - Sports Lawyer & Washington Nationals General Counsel

This transcript was generated using AI.

Jonah Perlin [00:00:00]:

Welcome to How I lawyer, a podcast where I talk to attorneys throughout the profession about what they do, why they do it, and how they do it well. I'm your host, Jonah Perlin, a law professor in Washington DC. This episode is sponsored, edited, and engineered by my friends at LawPods. LawPods is a professional podcast production company focused solely on attorney podcasting. I absolutely love working with them, and if you're considering becoming a legal podcaster, or just wanna learn more, check them out at lawpods.com. And now, let's get started.

Jonah Perlin [00:00:35]:

Hello, and welcome back. In today's episode, I'm excited to speak with Betsy Philpott, who's a senior vice president and the general counsel of my hometown favorite baseball team, The Washington Nationals. After starting her career as an associate in BigLaw for several years, she took a career pivot by starting over as an intern and going back to school for her masters in Sports Industry Management. She's now been with the nationals organization for more than 9 years, starting as a legal affairs specialist and working her way up to General Counsel. She's a graduate of UVA, GoCabs, Vanderbilt Law, GoCommadors, and the Georgetown master of professional studies, sports industry management program, Go Hoyais. I'm excited to welcome her to the podcast. Thanks for being here, Betsy. Thanks for having me. So let's just start from the beginning and your decision to go to law So what made you decide to become a lawyer in? Was this always the plan? Definitely not the plan for a long period of time. I come from a long line of tax lawyers my great grandpa, my grandpa, my father were all -- Wow. -- tax lawyers. I never wanted to be a lawyer like them. I was told at a young age I should be, you know, push me to want to not do it. But after undergrad,

Betsy Philpott [00:01:39]:

I got a job at a a law firm in DC, and I really liked what I was doing. So I figured there was a path for me in the law, but it was just not gonna be tax. I love that. I love that. I'd so I talked so many people now who sort of come from families without lawyers. Right? And it's like they have to explain it and what to do. I actually think sometimes it's harder not to do something if you have several generations saying, like, this is what you need to do, but there's always that natural pushback. Yeah. And, I mean, it was one of those things that at family gatherings. You're always you've always got the people who are acting like lawyers, and I didn't wanna be one of those as well. But I think some of the skill sets that I inherited are obviously very good for being a lawyer, and my father was very detail oriented. And he, you know, he he was very witty, and he was obviously super smart. So I got all of those good qualities from him, and now it's led me to where I am. I love it. I love it. So let's fast forward or go back at the same time after you graduate from law school, you start as many people do, especially going to a school like Vandy, at a big law firm. You were here in DC for several years. What kind of work were you doing and sort of how did that change or make you think about what your career might look like? Yeah. So I graduated in 2008, and a lot of people who graduated around that time frame will recall that it was a very tough -- Mhmm. -- couple of years to be a new lawyer. Right? And it was no knock against the firm I was it was at. We were all the firms and all the entire legal industry had been upended, right, by the financial crisis. And so I started at McDermott in 2008, and I was part of the litigation group. But quickly, you know, work was drying up across the industry and what I did while I was there is that I noticed that the energy commodities and derivatives group, they had a lot of work, and that work seemed to be pretty steady throughout the financial crisis. And I was luckily just sitting amongst a lot of those lawyers. So I asked to be transferred into that group, and that's how I became an energy lawyer and I was an energy lawyer for the first, you know, four and a half years of my career. But what made that really useful for me was I was able to get a good variety of skill sets and cases. So I started as a litigator, which I learned very quickly. I did not like at all, and that's just my temperament. And I probably should have learned that earlier than when I was actually, like, litigating cases, and that was looking back, I I wish I could have learned that in law school or earlier. But I was I was doing litigation, and then we had some movement of some partners. So the work shifted around and the work that was left was mainly transactional. And so I had to learn how to do transactional work, and I was fine with it. I was 3 years into my career and all of a sudden learning how to do transactional work. And lo and behold, of course, like, I come to the nationals when I'm applying for the nationals job, this was great for them. Right? Because there was no one else out there who had litigation skills and who could do an inside discovery request, you know, respond Nats discovery request and do that kind of discovery inside this organization and also -- Mhmm. -- edit contracts and understand the contract process. So thankful that my experience at McDermott gave me both of those. That's fantastic. I mean, one of the things I think 2 things that you said really stick out to me. 1 is we're at a similar moment. Like, I went to law school right after you were graduating,

Jonah Perlin [00:04:47]:

and I hear my students every day talking about this moment. I mean, it's the first time in almost a decade that we're having summer associates get pushed back. 1st year layoffs are happening at some firms, and it can be a challenging and a little bit scary time for people coming out. And one of the things that you said, and I guess I'd be curious if you had anything else any other thoughts on it is in those moments, you kind of have to be a utility player to steal a metaphor from your business, and you gotta go where the business is because lawyers are always gonna have business. It's just not always gonna be exactly the same. what kind of mindsets or skill sets or ways of thinking about it did you use to sort of not get stressed out about, oh my god. I've just spent 3 years of my life, and now I'm doing something totally different?

Betsy Philpott [00:05:31]:

Yeah. So I looked at the 2008, 2009 time period as just the most important thing to do was to stay employed and survive and learn a skill set. Any skill set. Yes. Because especially in the legal industry, in some ways, it really doesn't matter what subject matter you're working on or which group you're in in your 1st couple of years, you're just learning how to be a lawyer. Love that. How to speak like a lawyer, how to write like a lawyer, how to work with other lawyers, just issues spotting all of that. And so my main goal back then was survival and skill development. And that's why I didn't worry about it. And then when everything started to calm down, then I took a deeper dive and looked at what I was doing and realized that this is not the subject matter I wanna wake up 10 years from now and be a lawyer, an energy lawyer. But I knew that I had gotten the skills I needed to try to pivot into whatever Perlin I wanted to go into. And so -- Mhmm. -- if I was one of the young lawyers now, I would just try to keep working on the skill development. And even if you were to lose your job in big law, finding anything else that can help you learn and develop those skills in the interim until your next job or whatever job it is. is what you really need to do and not to get so hung up on. Of course, like, I know they're stressed because there's, you know, all the financial obligations that we all get ourselves locked into. Sure. There's lot of pride involved as well. So -- Mhmm. -- it really for me, it's the skill development. Yeah. I love that. And I love how look. You had to change skill sets once and then practice areas a second time and being comfortable changing those things. You're right. In the moment, I think sometimes people feel like, oh my goodness. I'm starting over. But in retrospect, right, when you get all of those skills, it may help you get a better job down the line or a job you like better. Before we talk about your pivot to sports, the last question I'd have is you said you started in litigation and realized it wasn't temperamentally

Jonah Perlin [00:07:17]:

the right fit for you. And I always like to ask people when they say things like that, sort of what did you think you were gonna do and and why didn't it fit temperamentally in the hopes that maybe we can short circuit someone else going through that same challenge?

Betsy Philpott [00:07:30]:

So I was at Wild Gotchell before a law school as a litigation paralegal. I knew what it was like to be in a litigation group. I think when I became a litigation associate and I really saw just how aggressive and it's like winter takes all. Right? Mhmm. You know, I was getting discovery requests that were due on December 26th, then people were doing that on purpose in order to ruin my holiday for their client And I learned quickly that there were some of my friends who that didn't hit them emotionally at all, but it did for me. Mhmm. And I realized, you know, there's lots of other ways to be a lawyer. Nats just the transactional work or in house work that I have. You can go to the government. There's all sorts of other -- Sure. -- jobs out there for people who are lawyers, And I prefer deal work, and I prefer the other party also wanting to get to some version of yes with me. Mhmm. I was a psych major in undergrad. I really like the relationship aspect of the law and the relationship management component of my job now, you don't really have that as much in litigation because you're just trying

Jonah Perlin [00:08:34]:

to beat the other party at all costs, and that's just not what I wanted to do for the rest of my career. Totally. So let's talk about the pivot. So you've been a big law associate for almost 5 years. At that point, a lot of people are sort of looking, oh, now I have expertise. Now I'm ready to sort of, like, level up to senior associate or maybe make their Philpott, but at the same level, you took a little bit of a different path. Talk about what that path was and and sort of what you were thinking at that point? Yeah. So, I mean, if I'm being really honest, I was my mental health was suffering at that point. Mhmm. And I was trying to figure out

Betsy Philpott [00:09:07]:

what I could do to change my life, right? There are certain things of course we can control and we can't control. And I was also listening to a lot of my colleagues both from I was at and from law school complaining about their careers and that they weren't happy. I was noticing that nobody was trying to change that. And I think, you know, maybe that's because we're lawyers are inherently risk averse. But -- Right. -- no one was changing that. And, you know, big law also, it sucks you in with the nice salary, and you You get a beautiful office, and you get all the supplies, and technology you ever need. And so those things are nice. Right? And it's scary to think about going back and starting over or doing exactly what I did. But I decided that it was important for me to give myself a chance. And I came up with a plan and I started saving money. So I spent a couple of years just saving money that I would use while I was going through this transition because I knew I was gonna go from a big loss salary down to, like, probably nothing -- Mhmm. -- or not that much I needed enough to float me for a couple of years both through this education at Georgetown. And then after that education, And I think I gave myself 5 years. I just wanted to make sure that by the time I was forty, I had given myself a chance to get into the sports industry as a sports player. And then that way, if I didn't do it, at least I could go back and say I tried as opposed to being like, oh, I wish I had even tried. Right? And and look. Like, look what happened look. A lot of it is luck. There's there's a lot of luck. There's a lot of timing. As always, with every job, there's timing. Sure. But if I didn't give myself that chance, I wouldn't be in chair I am today. Yeah. What was so exciting to you about transitioning to sports and the sports industry and and sports law? I mean, I grew up playing baseball as a girl with boys, and I love baseball ever since I was a little kid. Right. I was a huge fan of Cal Ripkin, and I Mark Maguire, one of my best friends. He was a huge fan of Jose Conseco, and we were the the bash brothers together as little kids. And I as a young little girl, I wanted to be the 1st professional female baseball player. And by the time I was, like, 12 or 13, I realized that that was not gonna happen. So I just love sports. And then when I was a young lawyer, I was going to cap I had capital season tickets and Nats season tickets and my office was filled with bobbleheads like it is today. Mhmm. And it was just my one of my passions to watch it. Just like so many people. Sports is that's what's amazing about sports. Everyone's a fan and You can really get into it. I looked around my office and that's when I was like, okay, if I'm gonna switch industries, this is the industry I should try to go for. I won't name who it is. I spoke to a very prominent owner in the DC area and that's not one of mine. And he actually advised that I don't do He actually told me, you probably shouldn't do this. You you should probably just stay in big law, and you can always get clients that are sports clients. But at this point, I was also trying to juggle the fact that I didn't like how the hours were playing out in big law. And it was a natural time to try to look for something new because -- Right. -- I've spent 4 or 5 years in big law, and I wanted to see what in house was like. And I thought in house might be a lot of fun too. because you're working with your client base is different. Right? It's not just the other the lawyers, you know, the in house counsel of the companies you work for when you're at a law firm, you've got I've got all sorts of clients here. Right? I've got twenty two year olds. This is their first job all the way up to my very savvy billionaire owners. And so, you know, I've gotta be able to work with all of them. And so when I saw that, like, sports was the industry, that's when I looked for the Georgetown program And I went to an orientation, and I realized that no one else in that room was going for the jobs I was going for. Everyone else in that room was looking for ticketing jobs, marketing jobs, strategy and analytics jobs, operations jobs, you name it. Very few people in that room that were looking to become sports lawyers. So I saw that as an opportunity to create a path for myself to pivot, right, as we talk about -- Right. -- pivot from being in the energy industry into the Sports Industry. Yeah. I just what I really love about that story is sometimes I think some people would sit in that room and see people who wanna do different things and say, oh, man. I'm in the wrong room. And instead, maybe in retrospect. Right? There's a little bit of survivor bias here, but you looked around that room and said, no. No. No. The the fact that I'm different may may actually be an advantage to me because I'm bringing skills

Jonah Perlin [00:13:27]:

and going places that allow me to sort of I've often heard it called, like, build that personal monopoly where I may not be the best at any of these 3 or 4 things, but I have more experience and expertise than all anybody in these 3 or 4 things when you build that then diagram circle. Is that is that sort of how you were thinking about it? Yeah. The other thing that was happening when I was at this orientation is I realized a lot of the other students were coming straight from undergrad.

Betsy Philpott [00:13:51]:

And I knew I was gonna be an outlier. I knew I was gonna be much older than most of the other students but that was I thought that was something that I could use to my advantage because my plan all along was that this was going to be a year long interview process. I knew that all of the the professors were industry professionals. I knew I would have the ability to do internships with local sports agencies and sports teams. And I know that they're all friends. Right? I've been a professional. I know they all talk to each other behind the scenes. I know that they know who who the students are that are excelling and who aren't. Sure. And that ultimately, if they're all working at the nationals and the capitals and Octagon, that's where I wanna work. if I'm gonna impress anyone and if I'm gonna get a job at any of these companies, then this is a great opportunity to do this. And I I saw that there were all these other students that were just This was just kind of the next thing they thought they needed to do in their career because they had just finished undergrad. And so again pairing it with the fact that I was going for jobs they weren't going for. Right. It was like, oh, this is a great opening for me. Right? And it's and the other thing, Jonah, I wanna say, is that you said, you know, some people look at the room like that, and they see that it's you're different. Maybe you don't you're not a good fit or maybe it's not a great opportunity. I'm the type of person. I'm almost always the different person in the room. Right? Like, you know, like, I'm a member of the LGBT community. So, like, every time a woman in a man's industry, right, I'm short. Right? Like, all sorts of things. Like, every space I go into, I'm typically one of the people that would be categorized as other. I've noted it now, but that is absolutely an advantage for me every single time. I read Adam Grant's latest one of his books, and he talks about how you can use impostor syndrome as an advantage. And that stuck with me because I realized that I'd been doing that for a while where, you know, I come into a situation and because I don't feel comfortable I'm more observant and because I don't feel comfortable I'm kind of trying a little bit harder to build relationships and figure out the room and and figure out what people need and what what people want. And that is is really an advantage to me. And I think, like, when I talk to different groups, I do sometimes about diversity topics,

Jonah Perlin [00:16:00]:

I tell them this because it was one of those things that just -- Yeah. -- get home. It's it's a great point from Adam Grant. Yeah. I absolutely love that. For anybody else who's hearing this, you know, I have a lot of listeners who are sort of in the 1st couple years of their career and thinking about their pivot, and it may not be the same pivot as yours. Are there any mistakes that you made in that pivoting process or any sort of, you know, on the other side, any great successes that might help those who are thinking about making their pivot sort of 4 or 5, 6 years into their career?

Betsy Philpott [00:16:30]:

Yeah. I think so. So I think I'll do successes first. I planned it out like I said, and that was good. And so you need to do that. You need to give yourself time. You need to plan and have funds available. There was Nats one point after I finished my education at Georgetown where I was working Not for a very long time period, but for about 4 to 6 months, I was working about 3 jobs a day. Wow. I was waking up, you know, at the crack of dawn, going to one job from 7 AM to 3, commuting to my other job to do that one from 4 to 8, and then doing other things on the weekends to try to make meet, and I couldn't do that forever. Right? But I needed to do that to try to maximize my job opportunities and also keep enough income in. So you need to have a plan and you need to have funds. One of the things I wish I had done differently looking back was that when I got my break into sports, I was so eager to get a full time job and to get benefits again that I probably load balled myself in that process and I I could have maybe asked for more. But when you're making this pivot and, you know, it was one of those things where I just I I wanted the job so bad that I was going for that more than anything, but I would say, like, just remember that you still add a lot of value and you're still worth something. So I I wish I could have gone back and balanced that a little bit more. No. That makes a lot of sense. And let's talk about that break into sports. So you've had sort of a whole career, a a second education,

Jonah Perlin [00:17:59]:

a third education, You know, you're saying you're working 3 jobs. Talk about how'd you get that first job because I I always love those stories in sports.

Betsy Philpott [00:18:07]:

Yeah. I mean, I owe it to a former classmate from Georgetown, she texted me one day and said, hey, do you wanna intern for the nationals? I said, I can't intern anymore. I'm at a position in my career where I need to be at least making some money while I work. And this was during this period where I was working 3 jobs. I was one of the jobs was with the Major League Soccer Players Union at the time. It's now the Major League Soccer Players Association, but I needed all of my jobs to be somewhat even if it was just minimum wage, there needed to be something coming in. Sure. So she said, why don't you just come and meet the lawyers that are here and just talk to them about your situation and we'll see where it goes? because she had gotten a different job in the company. and it came in and I met them and, you know, we headed off. And like I said earlier, my combination of having some litigation skills and some transactional law skills and being a seasoned lawyer as opposed to someone who had only 1 year out of law school or was just out to get out of law school, I think that really interests them. And they gave me a part time job at first. And so I worked part time at the nationals for I wanna say a month or 2, and then they made me my full time offer. I mean, I still remember it's I got that offer. They sat down with me in the office I'm right now in. They sat down and gave me that and I I don't know if I've ever been prouder of myself, to be honest. Like, of all the accomplishments I've had, that felt like years in the making and that I had done I had sacrificed so much, and I had just worked so hard to get this full time offer to be a sports lawyer. And, yeah, it was it was great. is great. And then since then, it's just been a wild ride. Yeah. I love it. It's such a reminder. I think sometimes students especially look at people's, like, LinkedIn bios

Jonah Perlin [00:19:49]:

and they talk about the break. Like, that break happens overnight. Right? Like, one day, you walked into a sports office and they hired you, and now you're the GC of 1 of the Major League Baseball teams, but you had a decade of work and thinking and hard labor and experience building and skill building to get that break.

Betsy Philpott [00:20:07]:

And that's just I love hearing stories like that about the break. And think about all the different components. Right? Yeah. I was so lucky that there was I don't remember as a young lawyer so many people talk to you about networking. Mhmm. But that's really intimidating, especially when you're younger. And if you're an introvert and you're not into this, You don't want a network, but networking is really important. And if I hadn't been friendly and made this friend in my Georgetown program and she hadn't thought of me and offered me to just meet with these lawyers. That was the most essential key, but there's so many other pieces to it. Right? because I still had to show up with the right skill set that I like you said, had been developing for years. Yes. And it was right. It you nailed it. It's it wasn't just this one overnight break. It was years in the making. Yeah. And before we talk a little bit about sort of what you do as a baseball in house lawyer, let's talk a little bit about networking. Like, what are some of your you mentioned you sometimes feel like you're at other in the room, and I think it's particularly hard for those people sometimes to feel comfortable in a networking situation.

Jonah Perlin [00:21:05]:

How do you think about networking and community building, especially as a young lawyer?

Betsy Philpott [00:21:09]:

Well, I've noticed more and more as a grandmother how important it is and how much I actually enjoy it. It's one of those things that once you get over the hump and you start to get used to doing a lot of networking, it does become a lot easier. If I go into a room where I don't really know anybody, I will try to find somebody that also looks like they don't know anybody -- Yes. -- and strike up just casual conversation, joke with them about something silly that's probably going on or See if they watch one of my favorite TV shows and ask them, of course, all the standard questions about what they do. But we've got, like, this big conference next week. It's Sports Lawyers Conference, and my whole team is going. We're very excited. It's it's a great opportunity. And I go to these conferences, not for the content anymore. I go to meet people. I go to just meet people anybody, anybody of any rank at any company because you never know where you're gonna be and when you're gonna run into someone and Everyone has such an interesting path and they've learned so much that you never know what legal problems you're gonna face, so I just really enjoy it. It is hard first, but I do think if you just get over the hump and realize that everyone else in there is kinda just doing this also to network and not take it too seriously, it's fine. I love that. So let's talk about your day to day life as the general counsel of a Major League Baseball team. Like, if I were to follow you around for a week or a month. What kind of activities would I see you doing? It's great. Yeah. So every day is different, which is one reason I really love working on the team side. Today, I bet you no one's coming into the office today because it's a Friday after a long home stand. So it's just -- A successful home stand, though. A successful home stand. It's very good. And so today, I plan to do a lot of catch up on my emails and to read and write and it's a lot of contract work that I'm probably gonna do today. But earlier this week, we had, you know, I had an outside counsel out here helping me with an investigation. So my team, what we do on a a daily basis is we probably, like, 75% of our work is contract work. So we do every we review every single contract for every service and good that's ordered by this company. Whether it's getting Taylor Swift or Bruce Springsteen to come play at National's Park, or it's getting the lease documents done for the John Deere tractors to make the field beautiful. Whatever. You name it. For me, my job has changed through the years, and -- Yeah. -- I've started to do a little bit less of the day to day contract work and a lot more advising Sure. So on top of the contract work, there's advising and then managing outside counsel with all of our litigation matters. And then recently, the HR function has been moved and it now reports up to me. Of course through the pandemic and the last couple of years helped a lot with employment law type issues. But now I've got another responsibility, I'm really trying to think about some of the big goals that we have as an organization from an HR perspective, you know, recruitment and retention and diversity. and how to manage my vice president of human resources so that he's capable and getting everything he needs to meet all of those goals. So I mean, my week is all over the map. Right? Like, I'm fielding questions from ownership, one minute, and then I've got someone in here who's never heard of trademarks the next. And so we're just trying to stay on my toes and pivot I applaud my team all the time. I've got 2 great lawyers who work for me right now. They crush it. They do so much work. and they also just know they have to also do the same thing. There are 40 different topics you could be on in one day. You could be moving from data privacy, to employment law, to contract law, to you never know. I mean one day we opened up a nursing lounge here at National Park It was years ago, years ago. Yeah. I remember when it opened. Mhmm. Yeah. So I spoke to other clubs about how that went in their jurisdictions. And then, you know, did a little bit of research on people's right to breastfeed in the district. There's a really broad right to do so under the DC Human Rights Act. it was just a fascinating day because I was like, why would I ever do this? Right? Right. And big lies, an energy lawyer, I would never be looking up topics like this. So There's there it goes everywhere and I think that that's what makes the day to day so exciting and the other thing that I love about it especially compared to when I was at a law firm is that I actually get to see the fruits of my labor a lot more. So I can walk around the ballpark and see all of the sponsors we have and know that my team or I helped with those deals Nats that sign is there or that activation that was a little bit complicated was we helped solve that problem for them, pretty much like all of that, right? So you can just see every single thing when I'm signing baseball deals and that player has a great day, or it's one of those things where we're just trying to plug a hole somewhere in the system, and we need a guide to be signed immediately. And we scrambled to do it on a Saturday night so that he can play that Sunday morning. All of that fits together. And it's really, it's just like a really cool dynamic of this kinda fast pace but your goal is a fun goal, right? We're an entertainment company at the end of the day. And it I mean, I just I love it. It changes every day.

Jonah Perlin [00:26:30]:

That's amazing. And one of the challenges I imagine of being needed in so many different areas. Like, that's one of the clearly joyful parts. Like, I hear it in your voice just talking about the great variety of things you get to do. But how do you stay on top of all of these varying areas? And, particularly, people who are newer at this. Right? You've been doing this several years so you have a little more experience built in. Like, how do you become

Betsy Philpott [00:26:56]:

sort of enough of an expert to even know who your first call's gonna be? That is actually one of the key knowing what you know and knowing what you don't know is 100% what I'm looking for in my staff. I need someone who can come to me and say, I know how to do it up to this point. I can't answer these questions. And having the confidence to tell me that is crucial. And having that judgment, I can't have anyone be guessing with me here. Right? Like, we all have to understand what we don't know. The good news is I have an army of outside counsel and I truly mean it. I probably have 20 to 30 different firms of all different sizes, whether it's some of the big law, big name firms that we all know or it's down to small local shops with great practitioners who are extremely specialized in their area. I have crypto counsel, data privacy and security, insurance, like, you name it. I have every single specialty out there. Mhmm. Just in case there is something that exceeds the knowledge base of the in house crew. We also use tools to help us. So when we're giving our advice, we say This is based off of what I can find and this is so you have to manage the risk. Right? Right. And that also is a huge part of my job is risk management. And it's the issue spotting and then the risk management. And now I say this because what's funny I laugh is the the pandemic really threw this all in a blender and made everything crazy because for so long when we were talking about probability of something happening and not happening, whereas, like but this will never happen. Like, we'll never have to use the force majeure clause. And then, of course, the pandemic happened, and then we've kind of changed since then. But -- Right. the risk management trying to evaluate, like, issue spot, evaluate the likelihood, look at the scope. How long is this so for example, Let's say we have an event at the ballpark and it's for 1 night. It's just for 1 night. The risk of something happening in that window is much smaller than a 10 year deal. Sure. And just taking that into account, like, understanding that that's something you should really take into account. That's something that's crucial for me and my team, and then If it gets to the point, there's some thresholds I have in my head when it comes to term and dollar and

Jonah Perlin [00:29:08]:

risk. I was gonna ask about negotiating deals because at least in this particular moment, I'm just a baseball fan. And that seems to me to be the thing that we see sort of, like, in house baseball or any sort of major sports team negotiating? What's it like to negotiate a deal with a sorta star baseball player? What's that like?

Betsy Philpott [00:29:28]:

One thing that's interesting is that and I get asked about these types of questions all the time. Sure. Or I get asked about these types of deals all the time because they are the ones that are the most famous and, you know, they're kind of the bread and butter of what we're doing. The thing is is that the template agreement is pre negotiated -- Mhmm. -- by the CBA, and it has not changed. much at all through the years. It changes a little bit, but it's pretty standard. And then all of the other language, for the most part, teams replicate from player to player. So you're actually not changing that much. A lot of the negotiation is done on from my baseball team. Mhmm. Like, my baseball op guy is, like, you know, my GM and my assistant GMs and you're really negotiating the basic business terms, right? The term the AAV like how much you're paying per year, the salary, and then a couple of other add ons, right, if the player wants a sweet on the road or There's just some other thing that they really care about if they're gonna donate some money to our Washington National's philanthropies whatever it may be. The crazier thing about those deals though is the competitive nature of them and the timing of them. So, you know, typically, you're not the only suitor for that player. Right. And this happens in the business world sometimes, but it's not always. But it almost it happens a lot in sports. Right? Someone else really wants to this player too. And there's markets driving up the cost and it's all about speed and it's all about secrecy and you have to really make sure that you don't overplay your hand or show how desperate you are, how much you want. This player, you don't. Another thing that can be difficult is streamlining all the communications to make sure that they go the players' agent isn't necessarily calling all sorts of other people over here and changing the deal and we don't know what's going on. So it's a lot of the management part and it's less of the what the actual deal points are, then it's a an absolute sprint to get it done and get it all signed and sealed. And then, you know, it's out there, and it and then it's an exciting day. Look, we extended our young catcher this year and that was the first long term deal we've done in a while since basically since Patrick Corbin. And that was great. Right? Like it's a and it's a great moment for the franchise too because you're really you're making you're showing the fans about who you're committing to. It's great opportunity for this player. to lock in some guaranteed compensation and some security and stability. So it's a lot of fun. Like those are different but they're not few and far between, and then they're -- Mhmm. It's not really about the legal terms going back and forth. It's more about the management of the process.

Jonah Perlin [00:32:01]:

I love that. I guess the other sort of question is, how much are you interacting with the baseball side of things? I mean, not just getting to see games and meet players, but how much are you interacting with the other all the other people in that building that help this frankly business run?

Betsy Philpott [00:32:22]:

Well, my team does all of the legal work for the baseball side. and it's more than just the player contracts. There's all sorts of services that they need. They need transportation agreements. Team Charter, the hotel agreements -- Mhmm. -- all the data analytics agreements, all the tools that they buy, lots of software licensing, pretty much all of those things. So The guys on my staff will help the baseball side, these tools and make sure that they're gonna work and that we have some guarantee that they're gonna work and provide the data output we're looking for. That's one of the main roles we help them with. We help them advise as well. We like We review the CBA with them. We review Major League Rules and we help with grievances, if those ever come along, another big crossover especially for me. is crisis management because, obviously, like, anything the nationals do is in the media, whether it's a small thing or a big thing, and there's a lot times where I'm working with my comms team and my baseball ops team to help manage a crisis or a story that could be coming out to make sure that We're implying with all laws, but also we're minimizing our risk on our end, but also making sure that the story is accurate. Sure. There's a lot that goes on there. We sit on the same floor as all the baseball ops front office guys and and gals and we we get to interact with them a lot and we also help with we have an academy in the Doctor, and that gives us a lot of legal work -- Sure. -- unfortunately. And we also, you know, we've got players that are for affiliates and we have a relationship with Astros, a joint venture in Florida Nats our spring training facility And so we we do all the legal work for that spring training facility with the Astros. Wow. And there's a lot of just little baseball things that come up. Right? You you just never know what it's gonna be. I mean, oh, we need to install a new camera system at all of our Philpott, and can you help us figure out how to do that in all these different jurisdictions and oh, we need to find housing. That's one of the new benefits last year that all the minor league players got was housing. Okay, we need to develop a house policy. What are we gonna do if one of the players damages things in their rooms? How are we gonna deal with this with the player? So we're helping them with everything and it's really

Jonah Perlin [00:34:36]:

Fun up. I mean, that's in addition to signing all of the baseball contracts, which -- Right. -- is happening constantly. And with such a relatively small team to deal with, I just think that's fascinating and amazing and maybe goes back to how you have to have relationships in your building and also with all all those layers outside who can help you with each of those important, but really different legal tasks.

Betsy Philpott [00:34:56]:

Yeah. That's right. Where about average most clubs have around 3 in house lawyers now. Some have more like some of the clubs that have their own regional sports networks or other business ventures like the Red Sox at Fenway Sports Group, both have more lawyers. But we're always busy. We're very busy, especially from November through May as we are getting prepared for each season, and then our, like, least busy months or August, September. But we definitely rely on each other to fill in the gaps. We're we're also trying to train our business people to be good at issue spotting and communicating back to us the way we operate is that the businessperson really owns the deal, and we provide all the legal advice. Right. And so We take great responsibility in the fact that we're really trying to teach everybody here how to be have good business judgment, have issue spot appropriately,

Jonah Perlin [00:35:52]:

be able to manage risk, you know, kind of pass on some of these skills we learned as lawyers. I love that. I guess I'd love to turn the conversation a little bit as we sort of finish up here to people who might be hearing this and saying, like, hey. That sounds really interesting. That sounds really fun. What's your advice to somebody who thinks they wanna get involved in sports? And maybe it's not in house at a team, but just sort of in your Sports And Entertainment Industry. What do you recommend to those folks?

Betsy Philpott [00:36:20]:

I recommend that you do 2 things, and one of them is developed skills. You need to develop in house skills, and then you need to develop probably I would call it the most popular or needed skills right now. you develop skills like transactional writing, contract drafting, negotiation, those types of things, employment law, intellectual property, things that have always been important for in house lawyers. But on top of that, you also right now, if you were to look at a job, like a list of jobs that are available for in house lawyers, 75% or more are gonna be related to technology. So understanding how technological licenses, software licenses, data licenses, getting up to speed on data privacy and security and anything else that's related to the tech industry and data is gonna be very useful for you. So this one side is skill development. And then the other side is what we talked about earlier, which is networking. I've known many people who have gotten into the sports industry, and it's taken 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years. And they just kept working and networking and developing skills And then when there was the right opportunity in front of them, they got it. And so if you're persistent and you keep networking and you keep developing your skills, I think you can get there. And you've also developed your skills internally to be at one place as a lawyer for more than 9 years, frankly, is becoming less and less common Nats just in in baseball, but anywhere. How did you develop those skills once you got that first job to sort of work your way up? Earlier in this podcast, I mentioned how proud I was of the day I got the job. Mhmm. Whole time, but I, you know, I also knew, okay. Don't stop here. Don't rest on your laurels right You've gotta keep moving up. You've gotta keep working. What's next? And so I looked at it as I looked at the woman who was ahead of me here and She's very smart and an amazing lawyer. And I so my first goal was learn everything she knows. Right? Be a sponge. learn everything she does, learn all the subject matters, learn how she handles everything so I could become the best lawyer. And then she went on to another opportunity and that helped me be promoted, and then I was a sponge for my GC at that time too. Mhmm. And figure out what's different about being the deputy GC or the 3rd attorney versus the GC. And there's a lot of differences. There's a lot. Sure. But, you know, it was one of those things where I realized that building trusts with internal stakeholders especially other executives and ownership was gonna be very important. And so that started basically day 1 here at the nationals. I realized that, and I put that as a goal every year. get to know the other vice presidents better, get to know the league lawyers better, get to know outside counsel and keep developing those relationships because the stronger like, network I have, the stronger I can be as a GC. Mhmm. And then, of course, the day came where I was promoted in February of 2020. And in February of 2020, I I knew it. I I was like, okay. I'm fine. Like, this is good. I'm prepared. I've been here for a while. There's some gaps in my knowledge that I'll have to fill in, that my former boss handled those things only, and then like 4 weeks in the pandemic started. So everything changed quickly in that moment, but you just have to always know that you're constantly in need to keep Perlin, and I still need to learn even in this right now. Right? Mhmm. There's always new subject matters. That's what makes lawyers being lawyer really fun, I think, is that the law is constantly changing and evolving and updating and there's always something new to think about we've got all of the AI coming that's gonna I mean, that's probably another subject matter that if you're a young lawyer right now trying to wrap your arms around how that's gonna impact all of the various business industries and the legal industry,

Jonah Perlin [00:40:07]:

that's gonna be a really useful skill at some point. Mhmm. People like me are gonna be calling law firms asking, Who do you have that understands all the legal risks associated with this type of technology? I need someone right now. Right. That's the things I would focus on. Wow. I love it. I love it. And what's great about it also is I think sometimes we sort of especially when you're a junior lawyer, you sort of look up to that senior partner, and you're like, what can I learn from them? And what you just said, which I think is such good advice, is look at the person one rung ahead of you. Right? Look at the person who's doing the thing that you'll ideally do next. and also look at what's coming down the pike, the skills that nobody has. And I think those are two additional ways to think about it that your answer talks about. we're getting close to the end of our time together. So I just wanna ask 2 more questions. The first is what your favorite memory from being a lawyer at the nationals for the last 9 years is and then we'll end by just giving one extra piece of advice to lawyers and law students that are just starting in their career. But let's start with some memorable moment in your time with the Nats. I'm very lucky that while I've been here, we won a world series, and that's everyone's go to for sure. And the day we had the parade

Betsy Philpott [00:41:14]:

was amazing, but there's another memory I have from that season that I think is pivotal to how that season played out. Mhmm. And everyone talks about the point in time where we were 1931. Yes. We had just gotten back to DC. We had been swept, I think, in New York four games against the Mets and Everyone was scared that changes were gonna happen here, and the day that we got back was a Friday and we had a make a wish kid here. And the kid wanted to just have one of those full days where they're treated like a player, they sign a contract, they go on the field, they play catch, they take DP, and we had gotten volunteers from all sorts of people, not just the players in the clubhouse, but even people like me were asked to come down and do a mock press conference for this child and I was given a question to ask him, you know, how does it feel to be a major league baseball player? And I just remember that that was the thing that the front office and we all really needed. It got our heads away from this you know, negative. We had all this hype about being a great team that year and we got away from our record was terrible and it just gave us a couple of hours to be human beings with each other and to give this kid the best day of his life around here A lot of people think that that was the secret momentum shift. Wow. We all did this activity together. And then everyone knows the story after that. We were 1931, and we just full steam ahead all of a sudden, like in the post season, we came back from so many games and late and pulled it off. So those are my 2 favorite memories. What was the what was the last question? The last question is the one I ask all my guests, which is if there's something you wish you knew sort of when you were starting your career or some piece of advice that you give, We have lost students who are about to graduate

Jonah Perlin [00:43:08]:

and sort of enter the profession.

Betsy Philpott [00:43:10]:

What's something you'd leave those folks with? I'll do 2 things. I'll do. 1, if you're still in law school before you leave, I would try to take as many practical classes as possible that actually teach you how to write better and how to edit contracts. but if you're out in the real world now or about to be, I would just remember that work life balance is actually really important there's a lot of pressure especially on young lawyers to not care about that and just go for being the absolute best and absolute you know being You still need to be a responsive excellent associate wherever you go, but you need to also be able to get rest to do that. And you also have to have relationships Perlin your own support network and interests outside of your career to thrive in your career. So I think there was like a lot of imbalance from my entire friend group in our first couple of years out of law school, and that's one thing I would do differently.

Jonah Perlin [00:44:06]:

Fantastic. Well, look, Betsy. Thank you so much for giving me time. I know this is one of your busy months And, you know, it's been great to talk to you, and I appreciate the candor. And since you're just just down the road, albeit we're doing it digitally, I hope someday we can meet in person because this has fantastic, and I just really appreciate it. Thank you, Jonah. And you're welcome at Nationals Park anytime. Well, I'm there all the time, but only as a fan. So you'll hear me cheering with my kids as often as possible. So thanks for doing this. And, obviously, good luck this season. Thank you so much.

Jonah Perlin [00:44:37]:

Again, I am Jonah Perlin, and this is the How I lower your podcast. Thanks to podcast sponsor LawPods for their expert editing. If you're a lawyer considering starting your own podcast, definitely check them out at lawpods.com. And thanks to you for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, I hope you'll consider sharing with friends and colleagues or on social media. And, of course, if you haven't already done so, please sign up for the email list at howilawyer.com, or subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. As always, if you have comments, suggestions, or ideas for the show, please reach out to me at howeyeloyear@gmail.com or at jonopurlin on Twitter. Thanks again for listening, and have a great week.